"Platon's notebook" interview with Mihail GOFMAN
13 december 2018
B: Mr. Gofman, good morning! This time we can properly greet each other and share the same time of the day. After the interest provoked by our first interview via skype, it's time to have a new one. Now we'll have a face-to-face conversation here in "the Heart of Europe".
G: Good morning! I'm also glad to see you again. Actually we are not talking via skype or other mean of telecommunication, we are "Live". Initially, I thought it was a joke that you accepted to come here in Athens, but yeah whatever... I'm here because I have to deal with some matters concerning my activities, including business. The fact that you insisted, I made a joke about that, and you accepted, makes me happy to see you. I understand that my intervention at your previous programme had certain consequences and dynamics, which weren't just public... As I have received different messages myself.
B: Indeed. Many people requested some clarifications. Further questions have turned-up... Also many people, which you had brought up, have chosen to reply. Therefore, we think that you should also have this right.
G: I have meticulously analyzed the replies, both public and private ones, however I don't think I should make certain interventions or statements. It is up to each person how and what to understand.
B: Anyway, there's some specific language, hard for our viewers to understand. That's why we could have used a simpler language to explain, so anyone from R. of Moldova could understand what happened to them.
G: Indeed, maybe my language is specific, but it's addressed, first of all, to the specialists and experts in my domain. Because our duty is, was and will be to unmask the complex schemes of financial engineering on international scale, unfortunately R. of Moldova has also been implicated in them. You see very well that the US, German and other countries international anti-laundering institutions are already dividing the investigation roles. In which a variety of different high-ranked judicial companies from these countries are involved. If I had to say that in a simpler way for the citizens of R. of Moldova, I'd make the example of the "fridge situation".
G: The "fridge situation" consists in the fact that any citizen when opens the fridge, finds the bare minimum that's stored there. It turned out that one day someone entered in the kitchen of those citizens, so more was disappearing day by day. Even since 2007, at the time of the Topa brothers, Platon... Later, after 2009 Lucinschi group, Filat group, Shor and so on joined the group. So finally, in November 2014 not only the common citizen's food did disappear, but also the fridge. In hard times, any citizen has something scraped together for bad days. They put their hand there too. spent what was hidden and one day there was nothing left anymore. And of course that these have started to ask themselves: "What is happening with us?"
B: That's how it is. In 2014 the National Bank was forced to spend some it's resources in order to buy another fridge to the citizens of R. of Moldova, if we stick to the example. Mr. Gofman, I have seen particular reactions even from those who weren't mentioned in our interview, certain journalists whom you told that you had sent particular documents, which they never made public since 2016. They "emerged", if we may use that expression, and made it understand that those documents were not convincing enough to hold of someone's interest for journalistic investigations.
G: That's really how it is. I have mentioned no surnames of the journalists, each relates individually. Indeed, I have sent more material before, so they could be published. I had been listened to at that time, maybe many things could have been restored. I want to make a clarification: they have not only been sent in 2016, but in 2014, even earlier. fact that I didn't mention them, has made them to "emerge" and reveal themselves, this confirms they did it. There's also the fact that they're trying to state that these documents are irrelevant... Maybe the theft of the billion wasn't relevant either till now? It doesn't really make any sense. And those people who present themselves as free press, pseudo journalists, yellow press... concerns them. That's to say, on one hand they're pretending to be investigating on the theft of the billion, on the other one in fact they are attacking me and don't know why.
B: Because you are just talking about this.
G: Exactly. Basically this aspect is implied. I even have private messages too, which ask me to stop since what I'm saying is not good.
B: Could we see them?
G: Yes! There are different messages that I specify.
B: From what I'm noticing so far, even we from Zeppelin Investigations have received different epithets...
G: Well, I'm telling you that the programme that took place at on Zeppelin, had both private and public reactions. You already know the public ones, but the private ones... yeah, whatever.
B: I would like, if you may have the possibility, to give us at least one of these messages, in order to see in the end those who really want to know the truth and those who attack those who are looking for it.
G: I'll pass you those that are semi-public, not only those I received on my phone, but also those via Facebook and other networks.
B: An interesting aspect. You weren't the only one to read these messages?
G: Yes, indeed, I've shown the messages to certain colleagues from the specialized institutions abroad, and began to understand more aspects and started to connect things that are matching perfectly about what is happening and what role do they occupy in these investigations, why they are leading a certain current in order to hide some aspects... Now, both I and they are starting to smile, so, simply.
B: So, everything is burdening on the yoke.
G: Yes, yes, yes! hove that all the investigations that are taking place now abroad, look at the investigations, how many arrests, searches. On the international level with the implication of certain high rank companies from EU... And it will follow for real many interesting aspects and maybe one day we'll also arrive in R. of Moldova. At last those from the R. of Moldova will wake up maybe to really deal with the unmasking and charge those who had been involved in the so called "robbery of the century", including the Russian "Laundromat" made by Platon and services from other countries... the Russian Federation, for example.
B: Remaining on the aspect of the replies, the same journalist that, by the way, we have referred to without telling the name, in his own programme from a TV channel, has given you a specific reply, by inviting a citizen in the studio...
G: Which of them? Because we can say the name, I don't see any problems about that.
B: A citizen called Denis Ureche showed up, presenting himself as one of the persons who took part at the robbery of the century and which would have "broken the silence" so he could contributeto the progress of the investigation.
G: Let me break the silence for you instead about this person, if you are referring to Denis Ureche, aka "Urecheatul". I have carefully watched this programme, and the fact that the show appeared shortly after my interview, I realized that in the preamble of the show, the person who broke the silence, had already done that multiple times.
B: So he said he knows you. He even stated that you are a great professional and met you multiple times. Maybe you can provide us more details.
G: You have noticed that someone from the journalists had tried to force TV spots, advertising. Many did not notice that. Probably is not that convenient that Denis Ureche speaks well of me. I do really know Denis Ureche. He with some crooks form his entourage received since 2011 credits from "Banca de Economii". One of those was the Pro Acva Com company, which received about 2 million euros, at the time when Grigore Gacichevici was the president of "Banca de Economii" and was already under the political protections the PLDM with Vlad Filat. We started the investigations and it was forwarded to the Prosecutor's Office in order to initiate a penal lawsuit. Moreover, when Denis Ureche had been brought in front of me, it looked like he was the guilty one, but he is not the main person to have benefited from this sum. He has somehow become our informer, since he had to assume his responsibilities about his illegal actions, however we were interested in certain persons, those who have high state functions, who have received these sums. We had multime meeting with him indeed. He realized that he got into a really unpleasant situation and had basically no choice left with all the present problems. After the results of some special investigations, they were sent for further to documentations on the beneficiaries of the sum of 2 million euros.
B: Major players?
G: Major players. Yes! In the end he came with no registrations, stating that the technique didn't work. The report showed that the NAC collaborators did everything correctly and everything worked fine, it looks like whether he made an agreement with them or he was afraid.
B: With them who? When I watched that interview, that show, my question as citizen was how did he appear overall in this story, how he managed to get those loans, who provided him protection?
G: According to the information we gathered at the time, he was supported by Goiana Club through a man known as Raciula, which belonged to the PLDM entourage, near Filat, via the boss of Filat's bodyguards at the time, Gheorghe Stratan if I'm not mistaken, who was also the godfather of the brother-in-law of the president of Criuleni district, Rotaru, if I'm assuming it correctly. On this chain he appeared to be linked. He was used to get these loans, which were obtained in one day, which is impossible. Any businessman knows that something like that cannot exist, because there is a special procedure. More than that, being taken out by the so known "black box" in order to make some revelations and breaking the silence by stating he participated to the "robbery of the century". It doesn't work that way. In November 2014 when the theft of the billion took place, Denis Ureche was already detained. So there was no way he could have participated. Therefore, the "Black box" isn't that black after all. He took participated to the robbery of the banking system. This was a the beginning of 2011. There are two different things.
B: Obtaining the same bad debts? So this would be the reason he came up now with "these" revelations.
G: Right, but they didn't succeed in this media show, basically because they didn't know that Denis Ureche is my informer and they didn't know that in 2014 he was unable to take part into the theft of the billion. He participated to the robbery of the banking system. There are two completely different things. Of course that all these shows and this travesty in particular, the so known press, have their right to exist. Someone must deal with these aspects.
B: Now thing seem to be more clear, in my opinion, why just now Ureche came up and why during the show didn't identify any guilty. He said that neither Gacichevici, neither Platon... basically nobody was responsible for what happened. As you have stated "I don't know whether the billion was stolen" in the end.
G: The media show failed. Those who have tried to send me private messages "who are you Mr. Gofman"... I believe Denis Ureche answered. I'm a professional. And when he sends me music... I love music, the quality one in particular. And I listened to it with pleasure. If they have more music to send, I'd gladly accept it. I didn't come up with an instant reaction against the requests via their messages, however I have chosen my own way of transmission and I believe it works perfectly fine, unmasking themselves through it's own essence.
B: In the end everyone has answers to the questions they had, especially that it is not the first time. We saw Ureche with the same revelations also in 2014.
G: Yes. If I'm not mistaken he joined this party, Anti-Mafia Popular Movement. At the time Ureche attacked me too, the simple reason was that actually the material on his cause had been sent to the Prosecutor's Office, and further different events started to take place, as he sent us his lawyer to give him another chance so we could unmask the major players. We had caught already some of the major players, and the minors started to flee, others started to unmask the other major ones, and the moment of Denis Ureche was not that important.
B: Not also in Anti-Mafia. As far as I can remember, he went to a press conference with the activist Caldare. Likewise controlled by Platon, according to the information under my possession.
G: That's how it is. That's to say they made different attempts to deny, to hide lots of aspects so it wouldn't have been possible to find out what actually happened in R. of Moldova.
B: As far as I understand, the appearance of Ureche had the aim of putting under pressure the NAC, Prosecutors, so he would have been left alone.
G: Yes, in order to be left alone and not develop this argument and show the citizens of R. of Moldova "why did the fridge disappear from the kitchen of the Moldovan citizens", if I can say it this way.
B: You already mentioned the topic of those musical replies, let's all them this way, of those musical dedications on the social networks. Indeed one of the actual journalists, was a partner of stories and sms messages with some of the cardinals in Voronin's shade, if we can say it this way, civic activists who participated at the mass disorder on the 7th of April, have chosen to reply in a more interesting way, that "Who are you mister Gofman" on the social networks. A dedication to you had followed in his own show, which is broadcasted on his own channel as well. So in that programme she put a part of the interview you gave her in 2016, next to one piece of our interview made a few weeks ago, and stating a divergence in her opinion and wondering who you are now, since she previously considered you a hero. Well, in the end, who are you Mr. Gofman? Are you her hero or her villain?
G: Wait a second. Yesterday I was a hero, today villain, tomorrow hero again and villain afterwards?
B: Well, she doesn't understand either.
G: Maybe it's time to clarify who she is and who she does represent. Let's not forget that Lucinschi received 4.5% of "Banca de Economii" through a financial scheme.
B: Her hero?
G: I don't know if he's her hero or not, but there are attempts to hide this aspect. However, it doesn't work. They unmasked themselves. They said, if I'm not mistaken, in an interview given by Mr. Lucinschi, that he lent her 1.5 million euros, which further stated it didn't go like that. There is another financial scheme, which still today nobody wants to get in it's core. It was only used through off-shore companies, shell ones, with a sum of 600 thousand dollars, divided in series of 50 thousand each, and circulated via a carousel scheme. If I'm not mistaken, there were 21 persons who divided the shareholding from Banca de Economii, in which also Lucinschi got in. By the way, well described in the Kroll report. No one wants to get the essence, but whatever. One day maybe they’ll want to. Because there are already all the documents, I just don't understand why no measures are taken. By the way, again the well-known Platon's Kelway Trading...
B: And Ureche, by the way, confirmed the scheme through which, as you said already in the interview, that money went via Kelway Trading, which was a shell company owned by Platon.
G: If we are talking about Pro Acva Com, then yes! Kelway Trading... yes! If we are concretely talking about Denis Ureche, the considered transactions have been made through Kelway Trading. I think it is time to point out which is the real press, which is the yellow one, who secretly pays them. Pay attention, if I'm concretely talking about me, who attacks me? The feminine side that have to face a man, which cannot attack, neither say anything nor reply. However, I know very well who I am dealing with. And dear citizens of the R. of Moldova, you have no idea who you are dealing with. This is a organized criminal group, which somehow has been disbanded, not completely, it still lasts, but I'm telling those who are behind and hiding under the skirts of these women that they have no chance. I know very well who I am dealing with. And all the attempts that are taking place, and I understand very well. I will not give up! The cut of the brake oil tube from my wife's car, unscrewing the front wheels... Despite they are in isolation, being detained... They'll have no chance. I take care of protecting my family and the children. And if any attempt of hurting my family will take place, I will take measures. I will not wait until I'll hear in my courtyard or at the balcony noises of grenades, as it happened to Mr. Dragutanu, ex-President of BNM.
B: The matter you are talking about is very serious.
G: It happened to this person as it happened to my wife. We may go on talking about this subject forever. Threats inside the judicial system, threats to the prosecutors, to the NAC collaborators, to the Anti-Laundering agency... Remember about the disparaging manifests against the judges from CSJ, who somehow were just executing the law and refused to satisfy the requests of certain people. Just as they were making the chosen manifests on the Viaduct street with disparaging messages against... ( I'm sorry to mention them but they did not deserve it) Mrs Macinscaia, Nicolae Clima...
B: The CSJ magistrates.
G: Right! As far as I know, they refused to execute some indications from Platon at the time. There were different murder attempts. Like when Mr Nicolae Clima's car hit someone and drove away from the accident place. There have been may aspects. Well, deeds had been unmasked in the end. There had been setups, and setups go on. A more specific case, which I would like to talk about... And this one with the manifests had been prepared by someone. It would have been impossible to draw a picture I don't even imagine the size (3 by 7 meters)... An extraordinary case involved the CSJ judge, Svetlana Novac. On which a lawsuit followed according to the article 243 concerning money laundering. She found out, out of the blue, that she had bank accounts in a bank from Baltic region, where she had opened accounts worth 217 thousand dollars. That's to say that her daughter or the son-in-law, as far as I remember, and were not declared to the National Agency of Integrity, because she was a public person. However, she didn't know, neither could have. Those did not belong to her, but the pressure, psychological factor, intimidations... Who could have got in such kind of schemes? Everyone understands that thee are not specific schemes. Somewhere, someone has taken a copy of her ID, her passport. Someone went to Latvia and opened those accounts. Someone used the given money. Since the money were officially recognized and someone used her card across all Europe. As she was in R. of Moldova. She did not know. This is really extraordinary. You don't know who you are dealing with. This is an organized criminal group, that is not yet fully dismembered. These are really serious matters.
B: Indeed. Somehow shocking, especially life and health threats.
G: Of course. And if those who occupy functions and well known people, Doctor of Laws, magistrates... If they dare to make it to them, what they could do to a simple man walking on the street. If these people found it difficult to protect themselves, imagine those who cannot do it. We may endlessly talk about this. Various murders in Ukraine, Lasco Valeriu, you remember "Lapteacru". Basically the same group.
B: If I remember correctly, it is about Platon's "business" partners with electric energy.
G: Lapteacru as at the time and also with grenades, something has exploded under his car. The profession as chosen in such a way, that I permanently received orders or threatened. This time for sure, with the theft of the billion it was something more serious.
B: By the way, the replies. Another recent reply to the same journalists, same television channel where Vlad Filat's lawyers’, Veaceslav Platon's... appear. So, instead of searching where did the money go, we invite the lawyers of those who stole the money and try to defend them.
G: You know about the institutions abroad, specialized in the domain of stopping money-laundering activities, they are already looking with irony at this circus, these shows, which are nasty. They already know what is happening, how they took place and what attempts are trying to move towards other direction. It doesn't matter the kind of investigations, however, the services know better what happened.
B: Basically those who organized the scheme, are now victims, from what it appears...
G: No! They are not victims. At the end I'll make you a surprise, based on some documents how a victimization works...
B: So you have more surprises? You know how to intrigue...
G: Not just one. There are many surprises that will follow. Actually, let's leave that for later. Let me show you something interesting, how the victimization takes place and how the public opinion get's shaped. Unfortunately on Moldova not everyone understands, even in law enforcements, they don't know how this organization works from the outside. They are good on the inside, they are good professionals, but they have to understand how the external victimization system worksand can be stopped. For example, do not ask me where I do have them from. I'll show you how it is organized via different lobbying companies, or to say it in a simple way, those ho have interest in protecting quacks and major players, if we are talking about the laundromat and the "theft of the billion", in order to victimize them. Which means that they want to keep the stolen money from the citizens of the R. of Moldova, but also want to play the victim. As example I'll show you a part, I'm not really showing you the whole because it's disgusting. This is one of the documents, the first step, the second.
B: Is this a defensive strategy in the media? I hope you'd be kind to give us to give us a copy.
G: What for?
B: As opposed to others, to present them to the large audience.
G: It is also in English, an there are also those sent to the specific enforcements, how it was organized, what it was done. Let's get straight to the point, step by step. A document found by certain services, the so called "Platon's notebook" or "agenda", call it as you wish.
B: The well known "Platon's agenda", which satisfies the press from Chisinau since 2016.
G: Step nr. 1-90 days: Media companies, attack about 3 months. One article per week. Aim: persons forming public opinion, journals (The Hill, Politico, Washington Times, The National Interest, The Huffington Post, etc.)
B: Unbelievable. Is there a financed company?
G: There are really a lot. We are talking about a document elaborated by a company that we can't ay it's a lobbying one. It hides behind forms... the defense of the human rights, but we will get to that later if you excuse me. Let's talk about the first step, how is this matter organized? Getting space on television, thing that was done only on certain purposes and on certain TV channels. Services must be paid. You wanted more answers about how it is organized and why many journalists or pseudo-journalists which a have turned in different lawyers are trying to insert certain interests and basically this is done, and also this is paid for.
B: Of what sums are we talking about?
G: Don't rush. There are many aspects. Now we are talking about steps. Lobbying powers: 2 actions. In the US congress in about 90 days (meetings, projects, attempts, etc.) We may talk about a lot of things. The preparation of the films, investigations with notorious journalists... It takes 12 weeks to make such a scene, it takes indeed. Preparation of a UNO documents (budget, 3 months of activity, projects, things, letters, etc.) The lobbying and the legal part cost, for example, about 500.000 dollars. We are talking about the R. of Moldova at the moment. To be paid: 200.000 dollars until the 19th of July or earlier... 195.000 dollars until the 19th of August. 95.000 dollars until the 9th of September. There are many things... The leading of this project: a bonus will be obtained after the success gained. The tickets for moving, we guarantee for moving 300 dollars a night, for 7-10 days a month. This is a document is elaborated, if we are talking about the concrete case, you can't even say it is a lobbying company. When the company hides under the human rights, we don't quite get what rights they are defending.
B: I think I got it who you are referring to.
G: It is no secret, it is the company/NGO connected with Mrs Kozlovska. Ludmila Kozlovska which finally began also our members of the Parliament began to get into the essence of the problem. Today, and not only today but also yesterday, the day before, they have been attacked too. Look who is getting attacked! Public functionaries are attacked without getting into the gist of what is happening and on what purpose are being smeared. Where have been the deputies till now? The have just elaborated the project or this document...
B: Are you referring to the report of the committee of inquiry of the "Open Dialog" case?
G: Yes, "Open Dialog".Why so late, what were they waiting for?They didn't want to get inside the problem. Now the got in, they started to take action, but doesn't it seem too late? For that time, what will you do to those who had been disparaged, who destroyed a lot of families and don't know where they are anymore, who have given up under pressure? And pay attention to what kind of sums, how it is organized, what has to be done. Don't thing that if someone made pressure on you, you'd resist or not, it depends.
B: Good, now after making public part of, maybe, the "Platon's agenda" things are actually becoming clear with this "Open Dialog" and with the journalists from Chisinau too.
G: This is no secret for anyone, neither for the Polish. That's why I showed it them now, long ago basically mustn't had been public.
B: Is this agenda already in the hands of the special services?
G: Yes, in multiple countries they know it too, they know how it is organized, know who had paid, how he paid, how many times he paid. This is a small part of the so known "Platon's agenda" in which is also explained the role of this NGO where this sweet lady, Ludmila Kozlovska, represents hi, and is a quite promoter linked to the existence of this NGO, in particular from the money of the laundromat and from the companies used there and in the theft of the century.
B: We were just talking before about the report of the parliamentary committee, I don't know, but was it also seen from the US?
G: It had been very well seen, and it's not only about 2.5 million euros and not only from the US, it had also been observed by other services specialized in anti-laundering and this situation is of maximal interest. Everyone observes it, they know there had been attacks also at the Polish authorities, and also at the Moldovan authorities, but truth is truth. How can she represent your interests, the human rights in R. of Moldova when she had never been to, something strange. Why in particular R. of Moldova and why in that particular moment? They understood the process, therefore me and some other persons in that moment, of course we had to be attacked. Did you think that someone take care of changing direction, from the European to another? By the way, that is stated in the given report.
B: If we analyse the "Notebook" and the report of the parliament committee inquire... If the financing for this project from this agenda is from laundered money from the Russian laundromat, then we have an interesting picture.
G: On this aspect the law enforcements from R. of Moldova must express themselves and take care of the serious matters from the inside. They must realize the incoming risks, risk factors coming from abroad. For example point E: Is the country ready to join the EU or the Eurasian Customs Union... the Asian Agreement? FMI must first examine the question before Moldova declines. The budget is put apart for something like this. Was that particular project, that FMI would renounce to financing for R. of Moldova, financed? I am explaining you something exclusive at the moment, that all the attempts of changing or creating obstacles for the development of the R. of Moldova, for the diversive that R. of Moldova is linked to the destruction of the banking system was in fact against the country. Nobody heard us at the time, nor understood, but those politicians that, let's say so, instead of representing the citizens of R. of Moldova, which were chosen for this function, were spending time by destroying R. of Moldova. Unfortunately, this is the reality. It is late, but at least this aspect was understood, even if at last minute. Now you see what's happening in general with this NGO, there are already many questions coming out about them, how do they represent the human rights of different citizens I don't even know she has ever seen, or through who they're acting, why do they receive such important sums? Check out why it was expelled from the EU, these things never come out of the blue. Look at the Kerci conflict that has just taken place, by the way, it appeared on the Ukrainian press website about the introduction of a hero to the list of "Myrotvorets". This doesn't concern us, it's state politics.
B: There is a journalist that claimed to have fought for discovering the truth, also about our subject.
G: Yet, again that link with Open Dialog and Ludmila Kozlovska. Right. How could the citizens of R. of Moldova know all the subtleties? This belongs to the tactics, strategy, how to unmask them, how to work and not everyone's ready. Let's go back in 2016, why they kept insisting on the invitation to come on TV8?
Who was behind that? Who operated the opposite way? Who brought the bags? Basically, this is what I wanted to mention.
B: By the way, an important aspect, why did Open Dialog nd some journalists from Chisinau take action in the summer 2016, just at the time of Platon's detention in Kiev?
G: Right, that's a good connection, because in the moment of the V. Platon's detention, he had some really interesting documents and CD's with quite specific content.
B: We see from what you have showed today.
G: I wanted to make a surprise, I hope it was successful. There are still many surprises incoming.
B: Talking about 2016, after the first interview at that TV channel, after some time you gave another one at the same channel.
G: Yes, after a week I was in the USA and during the time interval between the first and the second one, I received a lot of threats and I didn't know whom I should have shown them.
B: Was this also the point od the second interview? Did something go wrong in the first one?
G: Something went wrong in the first one. I mentioned some aspects, which some people thought it was not concerning them. Talking about V. Platon, there are moments, there are many things... You know, I am a very good cook and I arrange both in my life... and profession which I carry on with it.
B: In this ploy, being already in the USA, how could they include you in the USA, despite the certain grade of protection? If in Chisinau you were vulnerable, how could they intimidate you overseas?
G: Family… What they dared to do towards my family is even today, are car crashes, which initially seemed to be kind of banal ones, at the beginning I considered them banal, so common that could have happened to anyone. The first, the second, the third, the fourth, in total about 5-6, one broke the windshield and so on... But the most dangerous was the one on the 30th of May 2018 and the unscrewing of the front wheels, from my wife's car. At first I thought it was an issue with the wheel and it looks like God is protecting us. If this is the occasion to transmit a message: They are imagining in vain that I will stay do nothing so they'd throw a grenade at my place, I will take radical measures and I will choose the methods my myself. I know really well who I am dealing with, really well, I resisted till now. There are 5 minutes left till we will make clear, so to say, the greatest problem of the R. of Moldova, some problems. Of course they will try to make us keep quiet, there's not only me, we are more.
B: According to what you said, if I understood correctly, all the scenes in the media, talking about the year 2016 and also what followed was part of a showdown between... Platon, Gacichevici, Filat, Sor?
G: Lucinschi! Someone tried to implicate me in this ploy, but you have seen that in the end the ploy worked the opposite way, and what it was attempted since 2013 when it was placed on the tables of the most important statesmen. Starting with March 2013, later June, August, 1st of ovember 2013 the documents about the fact that very serious things are happening in the banking system and there was necessary to take measures of rigour. What happened? The covering-up started, such hiding the documents and so on. In November 2014 you have seen what happened, there was another attempt to make a revolution by using the money of the citizens of R. of Moldova by robbing the banking system. Why conquer R. of Moldova, if you can destroy it's banking system and from here everything goes on, it had a domino effect on a political, economic and social level. I keep repeating the same things, it was a diversion against R. of Moldova, it was attempted the distortion and the change of the European direction.
B: Was it a form of hybrid warfare?
G: Right. We hadn't been heard, we hadn't been understood, but now we are respected because we have such specialists in R. of Moldova anyway, we had such experts who could predict such moments. Unfortunately, late, but it's okay that at least we are trying to protect ourselves from external factors, internal factors which basically are financed by the same laundromat, the same billion theft. The most interesting is that the attempts of certain NGO's and from the internal, even journalists come from abroad and try to gain even finances from the diaspora, different forums of businessmen, since we need financing without getting into the essence of the issue, without getting into the essence of those who want to put him in and protect, who. This is also a camouflaged form of lobbying and the pushing of some dark interests.
B: Mr. Gofman, if I got it right from what you said, but also from the content of this "Platon's notebook" all these press scandals were nothing more than a showdown between Platon, Gacichevici, Filat, Sor and Plahotniuc?
G: We can make a whole list. Each had his own duty on the chessboard. We're talking for real, 2016, Vladimir Plahotniuc took over the power, in January 2016. Further more aspects happened, Platon, Filat and the other disbanded parties, but the main are these two, one tried to negotiate about his freedom. Like I said last time, also Plahotniuc knew everything, but monitored everything. I consider that in the end not without the American support, the occident caught everyone in his nest and received the deserved punishment, others are coming up. Let's talk for real, V. Plahotniuc had no one role in the robbery of the century. The problem was that at the time, Banca de Economii was politically controlled by V. Filat.
B: V. Plahotniuc, despite not controlling the bank directly, he had the Ministry of Economy under control.
G: Right, he had under control the Ministry of Economy, however there's a moment, a quite important aspect. Public Property Agency, next to the Ministry of Economy was showing proofs of the stocks from Banca de Economii of about 56%, however, in reality in the administrative council there were two delegates from the Ministry of Finances domain, who were under the Liberal Democratic Party. Quite a strange situation, compared with other state proprieties where the Ministry of Economy had delegates in these state enterprises or companies with as majority shareholder.
B: Why was this special attitude towards Banca de Economii?
G: The division took place in this Alliance "of concrete", as M. Ghimpu said, which in reality turned aut that it was not that tough, it had really huge cracks. think you remember that both institutions and law enforcements were divided cas it had been further decided. By delegating one person from each leading party to the leading function, each had his own responsibilities and didn't interfere with each other's work. You know, I have always wondered why till now the file against Ilan Sor was not completed.
B: A very good question.
G: Let's talk for real based on what I said and in 2016 he was indeed a person that brought, so to say, the bags, the persons who directly had political and economical control and all those words that he put money in envelopes... I know what I'm talking about, I think he still has what to tell us.
B: He himself said it.
G: He said it, but we are waiting. There will come the day when he will tell us about the travels of some deputies from the Liberal Democratic Party to Monaco. Like Pistrinciuc, the served coffees with different deputies in I. Sor's office in the House of the Unions, that's to say there are many aspects and I believe that I. Sor has what to tell us. You see, he walks around escorted and with bulletproof west.
B: Where do these dangers come from, by the way?
G: First of all, I believe that the risks come from abroad. In particular from those he betrayed, his partners from the R. Federation to be more precise, "private partners" which somehow remained upset because of Shor's actions.
B: Could you please give me details? It is really interesting about the "outside partners" aspect.
G: "Outside partners"? Well, where does he come from? He had an interdiction in the R. Federation, there have been different attempts... You know you deal with people who betray partners.
B: Very interesting, from what you are saying, we understand that those envelopes made by Sor, which he announced, it would mean that he has a lot of information that could be made public?
G: Of course. I believe he has really a lot of information and his drawers still store information that he didn't manage to make public. He has what to say. Despite being a person from the enforcement, which considers that the thief must stay in prison, I believe we have a really interesting situation when he could tell us really many hings he has not said yet. Exactly like this in the US they gather information about drug cartels. You get the weak link and destroy the big fish.
B: Like you did with Ureche?
G: Yes! If you remember the meeting from 2014 between V. Filat, V. Plahotniuc and the simple prime-minister I. Leanca, where it was mentioned an aspect: who did not know that V. Plahotniuc wanted to take over the country. Who needs a country on it's knees? No one. Then it was a serious enough discussion and then Plahotniuc spoke in a more specific language, I don't want to repeat those words and don't ask me where do I know them from. He said: do not destroy the country. In particular at that time, I. Sor had the back against the wall, who denounced and betrayed his partners from the Russian Federation and the services doing the slandering of the pro-European direction. The goal was well defined, an attack on the banking system of the R. of Moldova. People had to get out in the street, to be unhappy.
B: According to what you are saying, it comes out that Filat with Sor were just simple tools in Paton's and Russian intelligence hands?
G: Exactly. If we are going into details, it was created the situation when the transit through R. of Moldova, the so known "Russian Laundromat", the Russians didn't give money in advance anymore, therefore, it was necessary of some financial sources in order to create the great project from November 2014, changing the European direction. Because of this, Platon asked V. Filat to give him a down payment on his word, a financial down payment to be withdrawn from BEM. After that he makes them roam around, through different financial schemes, dummy interchange placements.
B: Which came to banks controlled by Platon hereafter, such as Agroinbank and Victoria bank?
G: Between 2011- 2014... "Victoriabank", "Banca Sociala", "Unibank", "Moldincombank", all of them were implicated. Someone more, someone less. And they have further mentioned, after they launder those money, that they would give me financial means from here too. "I will pay you for some political, economical and political protection." You have seen how did this story finish, which has basically blown everything up. And this was the end in 2014. That's to say, V. Filat got the bait and all these matter were made by I. Sor. I. Sor, being scolded, he was told to execute any indications from V. Platon, in order to accomplish these schemes. You have seen that around the "Laundromat", the "theft of the billion", there are the same persons. No new people, at all. We not talking about the executors... We want to understand what happened in R. of Moldova.
B: Beneficiaries, right?
G: Beneficiaries. And I. Sor brought up and down the bag and executed all the indications. You see that at the moment, it came out as a very banal situation, they can't certify whom did the company belong to. Yes, formally, it is a shell company of I. Sor. Beneficiaries, in reality, who were administrating the company, belongs to a completely different person.
B: Yes, I have recently seen this show with Filat and Platon's lawyers, who stated that Zenit Management didn't belong to him.
G: Formally yes, but we must make some differences. Even from the legislative point of view, there's one person owning the company and another one, in reality, managing the money. The same situation that was with D. Ureche. By the way, D. Ureche received other loans, and were removed from his name. We remember that the Republican Hospital was bought with 10 million euros. The first floor was rented. There was also a lawsuit.
B: In 2012?
G: Yes. This is one of the bad debts. At the time he was the Healthcare Minister also from PLDM, A. Usatîi.
B: Ant this would explain who are the beneficiaries Ureche says you don't remember.
G: I remember them.
B: Then a question appears in this equation. Services, Platon, Filat, Sor, what is Plahotniuc's role in the end? Everyone is throwing stones, also those mentioned in the notebook and others from the district.
G: Let's make everything clear and finish the discussion. This bank, politically with the administration staff, with the persons, let's say directly to V. Filat, belonged to him, the prime-minister V. Filat.
B: Ok, in this situation, we have the following question: if V. Plahotniuc knew the enforcement institutions, then why didn't he intervene, so we did't have these effects if were closed up at the right moment Platon, Filat, Sor and the others.
G: Let's put the nativity aside. Law enforcements had informed the main statesmen. We were in that phase, in that period, what elections we had, parliamentary elections from 2014. If they knew that in 2014, we were in such a terrible condition, people would have come out in street. There would have been incredible protests. Withdrawal of all the money from the banks and all this chaos they tried to make it then. And all those who came aut as so called "economical analysts", were well paid. They had tasks to make the bank among the citizens, because parliamentary elections were in progress. That's why they were not detained and imprisoned.
B: It was a geopolitical game in the end.
G: Yes, it was a geopolitical game... so I. Dodon and R. Usatii wouldn't have come to power by losing rating after the surveys. That's how I understand the situation. And by the way, if we make a cool-headed analysis, it was saved by the European direction and the country didn't end up under complete Russian influence. The European direction could have been saved.
B: The story of heroes and villains is clear to me and why I. Sor walk around with the bulletproof west in Chisinau. And who is he afraid of. We are talking about the Skripal case.
G: Let's trace a line, yes, but it is a quite dangerous situation both for him and the people who nowadays talk.
B: And maybe will still talk.
G: I hope the quiet will be broken by many.
B: That's how it is. In the end Mr. Gofman, I'll have a reply too but this time with no musical dedications.
G: For me?
B: No. Ms. or Mrs. journalist, I don't expect to be called a journalist from you. First of all, I'm professionally a lawyer, secondly, you and some of the colleagues of yours have discredited the journalistic guild from R. of Moldova, since for me is an offence. And I'd like to thank you for your time and I don't know the intensity on a Richter scale, but for sure, we managed a new explosion to be perceived in Chisinau and in the region.
G: Maybe it's time to conclude with the explosions and bring rule in that small country of ours, because we deserve a better future. I also thank you for accepting to come such a long way, here in Athens, in Greece.
B: The journey is relatively short, compared to the one made by the money stolen and laundered from R. of Moldova.
G: Who knows, who knows what attributions has Greece in the whole...
B: And areas near Greece.
G: And areas near Greece, maybe this is also an interesting message, but we'll talk about this some other time.
B: Then I tell you, see you soon.
G: See you soon. Have a nice day.